Author Topic: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!  (Read 13997 times)

Flopjack

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[Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« on: January 09, 2014, 12:36:14 AM »
Spent some time in the editor and wanted to get some feedback on what I have so far. It's supposed to be made in the theme of HammerWatch, so I guess it's my own take on the gameplay more than anything. Open to feedback, so I need testers! A few things to consider:

-It's difficult, so bring a friend or two. I'm debating on balancing it for 4 players for the ultimate challenge, but nothing too gimmicky (like traps you can't see that insta-kill you).
-Certain areas are very dark. (the deeper areas)

Completed:
Zone 1 - West Wing: Hero's Demise, Cells of the Forgotten, Chambers of Treachery, Cellar of the Damned, Decaying Hall (connects rooms)

In progress:
Zone 2 - Administration:
Zone 3 - East Wing:
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 06:15:46 AM by Flopjack »

Enjay

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2014, 07:10:31 PM »
The Good:
Lighting the torches is fun, and a seriously cool mechanic. I'm definitely going to play around with that idea for my maps.

The second two rooms has engaging level design. The floor itself drew you forward, and gave you reason to keep goin.

Those glowing ticks. I don't know if they do anything special attack wise, but they glow! If you're going to stick with the dark theme, my lord, use those ticks! It's fun (in moderation) to not see the land, but still be able to see a swarm of glowing ticks charging at you through the unknown.

The Bad:
Waaaayyyy too dark. That engaging level design I mentioned? It was rather inneffective because even though logically I knew it was there, I couldn't see it, so it felt exactly the same as the first two room. The darkness is fun at the very start, where it's new and exciting, but it quickly becomes "Okay, I'm just playing through blind (Or with my minimap)" Time to just spam attacks in front of me to kill everything" I would recommend raising the base light level to at least something visible, if you want to keep the all-over dark feel. Otherwise, ditch the darkness, and save it for particular areas.

On that note, the first two rooms are just boxes stuck on boxes. I understand it's a prison, however simply going through box after box is not fun. I would recommend switching it up a bit if you want to keep the strict prison layout, and have some cells be closed, others decayed and broken down, and perhaps a few that are connected by broken walls, leading into otherwise inaccessible cells.

The Arrow traps in the third room are seemingly pointless. I felt they added no significant threat, or puzzle to the gameplay of the level. I would recommend scrapping them entirely, or working them in to a puzzle. (The exception to this is the hallway at the top, where it has the timed arrows. That was fun, but altogether pointless. I would keep those arrows, but give the character a reason to brave the arrow traps, as opposed to fighting through the enemies to get there from the other side. As it is, going through the "shortcut" just gets you to more enemies)

The Ugly: (Things I just think you didn't intend, but are broken nonetheless)
In the third room, all the apples are stacked a million high. I never actually found an apple where it disappeared when I ate it, so they all filled me up to full health, and stayed there to heal me if I ever came back. The one time I found an orange it was actually worse, because it disappeared, only healing me for 25, instead of healing all the way to full.

In the first room, the secret room you can either enter through the glowing eyes, or break into from a cell is empty. Finding secrets is fun, finding empty secrets just makes you question what you're doing with your life.

Your map doesn't use the color cover doodads in the editor. You probably want to find these and use them, as it will make your interior spaces feel like they're inside (Creating a sharp contrast between walls that you can be on either side of, and walls where you're on the only side of).

Rooms one and three have no purpose. They have tons of enemies, but there aren't any keys, shops, or hordes of wealth to gather. They are entirely skippable as it currently is.

The ledges in the maps are placed poorly, so that they are aesthetically unappealing, just go through and re-position them until they don't look like they're all bunched up at the corners.

Over-arching themes and ways to improve:
My only qualifications here are having played a lot of video-games, so take this with a grain of salt, but here are some general tips that you might want to follow to better your levels.

Always have a reason for everything. Those buttons at the beginning that open the doors right next to them? They're decent, in the sense that they allow you to bypass all the enemies in the cells if you want to, but then what reason is there for pushing them? An apple? Well, you're not fighting anything, so there's no need for that. Maybe try ditching the individual buttons, and at the furthest corner of the level, have one button to open all of the cells, letting loose the hordes of baddies, and allowing you to go in and collect that sweet sweet gold, and those precious bronze keys.
Give the player reasons to want to do things. As it was, I made it up to the fourth level (The one with tons of slimes and the elite skeletons thrown in) before I stopped, and I only made it there because I had a reason for playing (Helping out the custom level community, by giving the advice you're reading here). If it weren't for that, I probably would have made it half way through the first set of cell-blocks, in to the second set, saw it was the same, and then quit. Give reasons to continue. Oh, you want that 5-up? You want those stacks of fat cash, to purchase the upgrades from the vendors, hidden behind the silver doors? Well, now you've gotta find those keys, and that cash, you have to find the secret passages, to solve the puzzles, to get the rewards.

And don't just think this stops at the collectibles, apply this to everything. I already said above, give that arrow hallway a reason to exist, some perk to going through it, instead of around. The torches? Lighting them is hardly a worthwhile reason, since you move away from them seconds later, and you're back in to the dark. Make a room dark, but have three unlit torches, after the torches are lit, run a quick script and light the entire room, or reveal a secret, or do something to make it worth my time.


You have some skills, that's for sure. The layout of the 3rd and 4th floors are better than anything I've managed to get done so far, just work on making sure it feel like a game, and I'll gladly give this another play once it's more finished. :D Good luck!
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Flopjack

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2014, 09:20:14 PM »
Thanks for the detailed critique, Enjay.

Most of what you've said I agree with or was a mistake of some sort. If you think it's a bug, it probably is, like the zillion apple thing. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "first, second, third, etc..." room. If you could use their names, that would help a lot. For example, Room 1 = Hero's Demise, Room 2 = Decaying Hall, etc... Was the text working, indicating where you are and where a door leads?

Glowing Ticks - I made no new assets. The glowing ticks are a more durable golden version which drop lots of money. Unless you're seeing  glowing effects on the normal ticks and I'm misunderstanding you?

OK, now it's time for the harder stuff. The darkness is something I'm fond of, but I may definitely be in the minority. If I make it light enough to see through it, why have the darkness be low at all? But at the same time I don't want it to be a problem. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said to save it for particular areas. The idea is to encourage you to stick together, like back-to-back, when venturing in the darkness. I mean this is basically an abandoned prison with a dark magic around... anyway, not totally sure how I can use it without it being weak. If I'm going to use darkness, it has to be dark. I also tried to have a theme of, the deeper you are in the dungeon the darker it is. So, in the West Wing (the bit you played), you've got the Decaying Hall with some light to see, but all the offshoots are pitch black, because that's the lowest. Going 1 layer above the Decaying Hall and you have plenty of light. Thoughts?

I tried to make some connection with the name of the area and what you found in it. It wasn't always smooth. The Chambers of Treachery were supposed to be torture chambers. There's only 4 large cells, a blood pit in each one and a larger blood pit in the center (couldn't find any other doodads to help support the theme). I put the random traps there as a throw back to... there's sharp stuff around here. :| ha ha, it's weak, but it's the best way I could think to have traps planted in a jail! :D

Quote
In the first room, the secret room you can either enter through the glowing eyes, or break into from a cell is empty. Finding secrets is fun, finding empty secrets just makes you question what you're doing with your life.
This seems to be an issue. What actually happens is you break down the wall and exit through the glowing eyes. This is how you break out of your cell at the very beginning. You can later enter that cell. I may just remove the glowing eyes or not allow the cell to be opened.

Quote
Your map doesn't use the color cover doodads in the editor. You probably want to find these and use them, as it will make your interior spaces feel like they're inside (Creating a sharp contrast between walls that you can be on either side of, and walls where you're on the only side of).
These are a pain and don't work with black being my back color. If we could have black colored pieces like they gray ones, where I can hide things under them, that would be great. But you're right about readability on knowing if you can get to the other side or not. We'll see.

Quote
Always have a reason for everything. Those buttons at the beginning that open the doors right next to them? They're decent, in the sense that they allow you to bypass all the enemies in the cells if you want to, but then what reason is there for pushing them? An apple? Well, you're not fighting anything, so there's no need for that. Maybe try ditching the individual buttons, and at the furthest corner of the level, have one button to open all of the cells, letting loose the hordes of baddies, and allowing you to go in and collect that sweet sweet gold, and those precious bronze keys.

Give the player reasons to want to do things. As it was, I made it up to the fourth level (The one with tons of slimes and the elite skeletons thrown in) before I stopped, and I only made it there because I had a reason for playing (Helping out the custom level community, by giving the advice you're reading here). If it weren't for that, I probably would have made it half way through the first set of cell-blocks, in to the second set, saw it was the same, and then quit. Give reasons to continue. Oh, you want that 5-up? You want those stacks of fat cash, to purchase the upgrades from the vendors, hidden behind the silver doors? Well, now you've gotta find those keys, and that cash, you have to find the secret passages, to solve the puzzles, to get the rewards.
I haven't properly placed rewards, various collectibles, and I'm randomizing positions of a lot of goodies and keys. That may explain a few things. In short, I'm not done, but wanted feedback to help. Additionally, I don't agree about always. You're in a jail and you don't know where things are. It's OK to stumble across a malfunctioning cell door button, a relatively empty corridor, or whatever. Ever played Diablo 2?

I do agree it's not OK to have an entire area/room and have no reward, and highlighting key things like a button that unlocks a secret or opens a new way with a chime or a graphic is a good thing, but the small stuff? I think it's OK to get a little crazy with it. It's fun to push buttons. :)

By the way, is it normal in HammerWatch that silver keys are only goodies? That what I was planning to do: bronze and gold keys for progression where silver keys are optional for goodies.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 09:25:27 PM by Flopjack »

Keppler

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2014, 11:34:06 PM »
About the breakable cell wall. The problem is that you spawn outside in the main area with access to the darker cellar rooms not in the cell. I liked the idea of lighting torches as well, but I agree that it was a bit too dark. Since the game has no brightness setting whatsoever, the darker tone can be completely unseeable with some monitors. That is why most darker games offer a brightness slider in the first place and why they are not that dark by default. The darkness can be implemented well if the area that the player can see around him is a bit brighter (like he would be wearing a torch with him), but right now it gets very tedious to find the torches on the walls while trudging through the annoying slimes. I myself would prefer if there were less slimes in general as they are very annoying to kill in large groups and they yield no reward so they should be rather placed to block off rewards like they are used in the main campaign. Besides that the level design was a bit dull in scenery as of yet and there wasn't much reward to playing the campaign, so it rather felt like a bore, but I can imagine this turning into something fine when a lot of work is put into it.

Enjay

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2014, 01:02:42 AM »
Sorry about not using room names, I didn't remember them from the play-through, and was to lazy to go back and find them out. The numbers were 1 through 4, with 1 being the furthest to the left in the hall, and 4 being furthest to the right. I didn't number the room that was two bronze doors with the prizes inbetween them because I didn't comment on it.

From what you've written, it's currently a bug that you spawn in the hall, as opposed to the cell in Heroes demise.

About the golden ticks, you understood correctly, that was merely me throwing an idea at you about how you could possibly use them. If they drop more money then you would probably want to change the coding so that they just act as normal, though, so you don't flood them with money.

As for the color covers, they are a pain, but using them makes the levels look a million times better than without. Just use whichever matches the theme of the walls you're using, and they'll still appear black in the shadows (With your current lighting scheme), and youll only see the gray of it when you're close enough to see the gray of the walls, so I don't think it will take away too much from the aesthetic theme.

In regards to my saying to always have a reason, I believe you misunderstood me slightly. What I mean is that everything should have a reason in the sense that if you have empty cells, make them empty for a reason. That reason can be whatever you'd like, whether it's to pad out the dungeon, so it's not as linear, or to throw a few extra monsters at the players.

Let's look at it this way. You have a dungeon level that you want to contain 3 keys, 2 1-ups, and 1 power-up. You want all of these things to be located in cells along the dungeon (For the sake of this being a simple example). You could have one cell, with all 6 items, but that would be incredibly boring. You'd go in, collect everything, and leave. You could have 6 cells, one item in each, but that would be even worse. You would have the exact same feeling of, okay, everything's here, but you would be dragging it out over a longer collection time, creating an exasperating feeling. Ideally, what you'd do is throw in a bunch of empty cells to explore, so that it's not always the same thing. That way you're actually PLAYING the game, instead of just walking through it. So those empty cells all have a specific purpose, and are placed specifically to spread out the objectives in an organic way. Now, if we go to the other extreme possible, and have 6 cells with goodies, but 50 cells total, leaving 44 of those cells empty, it starts to feel like there's no purpose to ANY of the cells (even when there is).

Now, I still believe that no matter how you arrange these cells and rewards, it's still going to be a boring example. I used it because it was simple, and relates directly to what you're working with. If you're trying to add more excitement to the game, you would need to vary it even more. I am 100 percent sure you can do this, because rooms 3 and 4 (Sorry, still don't know their names), had pretty great lay-outs. They drew you to different areas, unlike the first room, where if I were actually playing your game, I would have no desire to go anywhere, I would just try to get out as soon as possible.

The gist of this is
Quote
It's OK to stumble across a malfunctioning cell door button, a relatively empty corridor, or whatever.
You're 100% correct, just currently as it is, there's about 5 times too much of these things I'm stumbling it to, and it feels dry.

So TL;DR You want to keep your players guessing, but don't make it so hard to guess that they give up.

Hopefully that clears up some of what I meant. Feel free to keep asking questions, and I'll gladly keep trying to help :D
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Flopjack

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2014, 02:29:51 AM »
OK, so my to-do list is:

  • Figure out start location bug (How do I do this?)
  • Add color tiles
  • Change level design in some area, removing patterns like all the "boxy" areas
  • Tweak enemy amounts (slimes, particularly)
  • Throw in other rewards for exploring areas. (food, money, etc...)

As for the darkness. Isn't the point of darkness to be dark? I mean I don't want you to see what's there without light. However, it's clear it's annoying to you guys, so I have a few ideas. Torches grant much more light or very specialized areas finely tuned for the darkness.

Thoughts?

Enjay

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2014, 02:53:37 PM »
Starting at 1, here we go!

In your campaign folder you should have the levels.xml file, and in this file should be more or less, a list of all your levels (properly formatted and what-not, yadda yadda). I believe this is what determines the starting level, so simply rearrange this so that that Hero's Demise comes first. Then, in the editor, go through the start points in Hero's demise, and make sure that the one in the cell has the start id of 0.

Color tiles aren't all that bad once you get used to them, and if you want to use black to keep with the theme, but it's ugly because you can see exactly where it ends, download this resource:
http://hammerwatch.com/forum/index.php?topic=1687.0 (Courtesy of MasterPrior)
What it does is supply the editor with gradients in black, so that you can have the color covers fade to the black you prefer, avoiding that ugly cut-off line. I haven't used them myself, but it seems to do what you'd like.

I drew up a little msPaint sketch for this point, but it's totally unnecessary, because I'm pretty sure you've got the point :D But it just shows two lay outs that both utilize a grid of prison cells, but by blocking off certain points, and adding certain mechanics and objectives, it increases the playability by a good deal (Shown by a red line)

Only thing I have to say about enemy amounts is to try and limit how many enemies you put in areas where that's all there is. If I fight through three hallways of ticks, I expect a bit more than an apple or some mana shards at the end of it, I expect a little stash of gold to pick up. If I see a 1-up, or especially a key, I expect to be fighting through a good deal more, and probably a few elite monsters. If you're aiming for difficulty, I'd say the easiest way to add a bit of challenge is to surround a bunch of easy monsters (and probably a spawner so you can't just kite them away), and throw 2 or 3 elite monsters in the middle so they can't just power through it. (It turns out I have more than one thing to say about monsters, but sometimes put areas in where the player CAN just power through it! Act 1, Floor 3 of the campaign, where there were like 10 bat spawners, and hundreds of bats made me feel awesome from racking up the combo, and it's probably one of my favorite small-parts of the game).

When I said rewards, and reasons for going places, the collectible rewards are part of that, but mostly what I meant are things that provide a linear progression. Hammerwatch might let you choose to go 5 different places on one floor, but the progression always follows a (slightly-erratic) line. You have to get keys before you can open doors. You have to press buttons before you can explore secrets. Add keys and doors to have people doubling back and exploring those other areas to continue (Not too far, we don't want keys to become an annoyance). Add buttons that let you take short-cuts back to where you were, so when you DO need to double back, it never takes as long as the first time. The goal isn't to get the players to say "Oh yay, an orange!" (Although, strategically placed oranges can be the best feeling in the world), the goal is to make sure they NEVER say "I've been stuck on this part forever". (Please note the difference between being stuck because of a legitimate challenge [which is fine], and being "Stuck" in the sense that it feels like they're sloshing through a swamp to get to a swamp).


And yes, the darkness :D
This will take us right back to the link I posted up there with the gradients. What the creator originally made that for was so that he could hide areas of the map that the players weren't in. Here are a few ways you can adapt that to the game-play that (I believe) you are trying to create:

Have three to five torches per area, and Legend-of-Zelda style don't let the player progress to the next (blacked-out) area until they're lit.

Have a few torches in an area, with the extremely low ambient light, that increases the light dramatically once they're all lit.

Combine the two, creating a one room at a time progression, where it's aesthetically apparent where you've already been, and what you've accomplished.

Again, those are just my ideas of how to incorporate this torch-lighting mechanic, I'm sure there are more (and better) ways to do it. I encourage you to play with it on your own until you get something that feels right for you the creator, as well as the audience (Does this get to be me? :D )

Keep at it, and even if it gets discouraging at time, I promise it'll be worth it in the end!

(Again, I'll be here for a good long while, so feel free to keep putting thoughts out there)
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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2014, 04:08:35 PM »
Hmm a cool idea to have in a dark level is so that you lit torches as you walk by them (like Linaru did in his level), but instead of just doing this, you need to find for say a "fire gem" or whatever, an item, when you carry that one, you are given the power to lit up torches.

Flopjack

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2014, 08:56:27 PM »
OK, flippin', everyone stop downloading the level. It's bad how it starts and probably didn't make sense. I fixed it though and will be working on changes. (Is there a way to remove that attachment in the OP?) I numbered levels starting at 0, which was the problem. : /
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 09:15:12 PM by Flopjack »

Enjay

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2014, 10:28:30 PM »
Yeah, you try to use good convention and you get punished for it :D
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Keppler

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2014, 01:37:51 PM »
You should be able to edit your first post Flopjack. I think you should be able to add and edit the attatchments there as well!

Flopjack

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2014, 09:29:33 PM »
Oh, thanks. I somehow missed that check box looking for a way to remove the attachment.

Flopjack

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2014, 06:21:14 AM »
Update! Check first post.

It's the same amount of content, with a bunch of fixes. It now actually starts you in the correct area! It's balanced for 2+ players.

I haven't made big changes to the layouts yet. I know some of you had various critiques about the gray area (which I added to some areas, some other not to give an "abyss" feel via edges). Base your critiques off what I have now. Check first post for download.

Let me know your thoughts!

Enjay

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 08:14:39 AM »
Okay, wow! That was a great improvement over the first run through. Overall the map looks so much better. There are still a few nitpicky things, such as your use of ledges around the entire map made the secret room rather obvious. Also, the silver key/door was rather lack-luster. I feel like it should have been worth more to me.

The shop-keeper dialog was quite fun, and I thought the signs reading the names of the floors was pretty awesome, however you might want to run a quick script to hide the text once you step away, so that you can't stack multiple texts on top of each other, and so it doesn't just float there as you walk away.

The level design felt MUCH better for the Hero's Demise, however, on the cells of the forgotten it still just felt way too big. I went through it for a few minutes, but then just kind of skirted around, looking at my mini-map so I could see and find the key, just to get out of there. When it comes down to it, I think there are just too many cells for the content you're getting. You could possibly try dividing it into cell-blocks, where you have to clear each one before you start the next, to give it some progression.

And now I'll go to my regularly scheduled complaining about the darkness.
Sorry, it's just not doing anything for me :( It worked a bit better this time, because since the level was directing me more, the darkness was less frustrating, and more of a gameplay modifier. However, I just didn't like not being able to see anything. I feel like a good example of what I'm getting at is Amnesia the Dark Descent. Amnesia is a game about darkness. The game loves it, and revels in it. However, when you're out of matches, unable to light any candles, and your lantern is out of fuel as well, it doesn't leave you blind. In game, your eyes adjust, and you get a greyscale, (still very dark) view of the world. Everything is still perfectly legible, and you won't be running into walls, but it's dark. It feels dark. The game punishes you for the darkness.

The point is, they took darkness, and instead of making in an everpresent difficulty, they just made it a flavor of the game, while still allowing you to function at 100%.
I was never frustrated with their darkness, because it didn't actual hamper me from playing. It just made me scared.

In your map, I don't think you're trying to scare anyone with the darkness. However, it can still be an important piece of the gameplay, without it being an annoyance. I played, and I was annoyed by the fact that I was essentially just playing the game at a horrible resolution. I got the point that it was dark, but I consistantly wished that it wasn't, only so I could stop straining my eyes at the screen. I didn't like that it was making it harder to play (Not as in more challenging, as in less desirable to continue). And on top of that, the torches are still just a formality. I go, I light the torch, I walk away, and it no longer matters that it's lit, because I'm not looking over there. I'm squinting at the middle of my screen to land these fireballs on swarms of bats.

Also, just something I thought of while playing, there should be a little "Nothing happens" notification when you press the buttons that do nothing. This isn't to make it easier, or to take away from the suspense of playing the game or anything like that. It's simply because when you play Hammerwatch (Which is what this is, even if it's a different campaign. I've opened steam to play hammerwatch, and mentally, that's that.), or hell, for that matter, any game, and you press a button, you expect SOMETHING to happen. It's just a given. Play a game, press a button, something happens. It could be a great art nouveau idea to fill a game with buttons that do nothing, but here, it just seems like something is wrong. Wrong on a "Game is broken" level, not a "game is disorienting". Going back to amnesia, I tried to open 100's of doors that told me "It won't open" or something to the effect, because I thought they might lead to the next room, and it never bothered me, because the game politely explained that they wouldn't open.

All in all, a huge improvement, and I'm looking forward to seeing more. (And hopefully next time I'll be able to see more :P)
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Flopjack

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Re: [Campaign] [WiP] No name yet!
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2014, 04:25:52 PM »
Thanks again for the feedback, Enjay.

Ledges. In the lowest levels of the prison, I just had this idea of using ledges instead of the gray blocks to give the notion of some massive black abyss beneath it all. Like it was all built over some kind of Lord of the Rings Mines of Moria. That was the thought, anyway. :P

I'm leaning towards agreeing with you on the darkness. I have one final idea for it though: using it in more niche situations amounting to, essentially, dark areas being smaller and more deliberate. So, this would probably mean removing darkness from Chambers of Treachery and Cells of the Forgotten. Another idea is to generate a large light source in dark areas with torches, not just the standard torch light. Thoughts on this?

If, however, it is an eye strain, that's a problem. I had a few friends who played it and they made no mention of the darkness, but I and them have been playing in a dark room (in real life!) so it makes it easier to see stuff.

I want a few more opinions on Cells of the Forgotten, but I'm not against sectioning it. Do you mean just connecting halls to a few areas of cells or additional doors? Agreed it gets a little stagnated towards the final ~30% of clearing it. It's like: Yeah, I get it, I'm searching cells... sort of thing.

How did you feel about the money amount, too much or too little? Was there enough food and mana? Did you play with others?

How would I run a script to remove the dialog/text on the merchant? (The signs say the same thing, so I think that's OK.) Would I have an onLeave > remove text, sort of thing?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 04:29:12 PM by Flopjack »